Dr. Fluttershy or: How I learned to stop worrying..(weapons)

[Fluttershy]

...and love the shotgun. Yep, its time for another one of these threads, you know, the ones swamped with personal opinions on what weapons are over/under powered etc. Right, just a reminder, all my opinion, some may share it, but obviously not everyone will. If you disagree with me please utalize the forums properly and explain why coherently rather than "omg youre wrong" or "(insert weapon) is fine/op/up". Now that the disclaimer is out of the way, I can begin.

(tldr shotgun gud, other weps bad)

Lets start with a little history lesson. Shotgun was introduced on August 10th, 2011, a little over a year ago during beta .58. It was added after getting second during a rigged poll(which is why it was inserted rather than the sniper thank god) as the "CQC" weapon. It served its purpose to an extent, it was powerful yes, but what defined CQC at that point was horrible, and outside of 15 blocks it became a liability. In short, much much worse than it is now, several times worse. It seemed to get improved every couple updates (shut up, the cone is bad ja, but it didnt neuter it, it received several upgrades in conjunction with it). Id honestly say its the most controversial weapon in the game if it werent for the fact its no controversy when its near universally claimed to be horrible.

Yeah, it was a little bad, but its improved over the updates/year. Its once abysmal fire rate has been increased in .76 allowing it better tackle close range targets, its damage increased by A LOT, and the number of pellets has also increase. Ive never tested this, but im fairly certain it has the power to kill 3 people in one shot as of .76, its not likely, but its on the table. As it is now, its the ideal close range weapon, it can easily one hit people in close range, it can somewhat damage mid range people, and is abysmal against long range opponents (or people behind cover/water, which isnt horrible). Its the perfect antithesis to the supposed "long range" weapon, the rifle. Which there shows the problem. Where as shotgun has a defined role of being a short range weapon that does poorly at long range, the rifle is a long range weapon that does the exact same at all ranges.

The problem isnt that shotgun is bad, its that the other weapons are OP

Which I suppose, makes the shotgun comparatively bad. Its a perfectly fine weapon, the problem is it has the unfortunate position of having to be compared the rifle-and to a lesser extent- the smg. The rifle is the shit stained underwear of AoS, of which many of you are too proud to change for whatever reason. Back when it was rifle vs rifle its fine, but now that were trying to actually have multiple, balanced weapons, it has to change. There is no way to compare to a pinpoint weapon with that fire power and ammo reserve. Hell, it doesnt even have anything in place to prevent its cancerous mass from completely engulfing the entire combat spectrum (whereas ideally itd be short-shotgun mid-smg long-rifle, its currently short- shotgun-smg-rifle mid-smg-rifle long-rifle). Theres only two options if we want a balanced game, which is to bring the other weapons up to it, or bring the higher up weapons down. Were already trying to bring the weapons up, and we can see how well thats working out with the SMG. Therefore the only logical conclusion is to bring the other weapons down. Ben recognized this, and tried to address it in the .76 beta, but of course, you are all pretty damn proud of your shit stained underwear, that didnt last long.

In the original .76 beta the massive ammo reserve was brought down (seriously how the hell do you even need more than 5 shots unless youre trying to take on a group?), and the firing rate was slowed down. While seemingly huge, it placed more importance on landing shots the first time and picking priority targets. When it comes to sniping, the skill ceiling was raised. To further aid in this, Ben reinstated its long lost pinpoint accuracy. It wasnt perfect, but it was the first step in actually balancing the thing, the slower RoF meant it was more risky at close range, and atleast more viable at that range than the shotty was at long. As you can see in the latest PR, that was shot down quickly, and all that happened was really increased body and limb damage (to compensate for the unnoticable drop off) as well as pinpoint accuracy in exchange for 2 bullets. What was supposed to be a nerf rather predictably became a massive buff for the rifle. What a shock.

What about the SMG you ask? As it stands, it can easily stand toe to toe with shotty, especially after its damage buffs (and head shot nerf going from 2 hitting to...2 hitting....). Thats because the two shots will easily find their way into the massive heads of our characters, and seeing the fire rate, thats near instantaneous. Im ok with loosing at mid-long range, after all smg is the middle grounds, the problem is, like the rifle, its way too effective at close range, taking what little the shotgun has. Im well aware this isnt as long as the rifles segment, but the problem is shared between the two.

What to do? That presents a problem, the answer is obvious, nerf the weapons. The real problem is however, HOW. How do we go about making rifle horrendous at short range but not diminish its long range value? How do we change SMG to not impede as much as it does on rifle and shotguns territory? I guess the question truely is, how do we actually give the weapons(bar shotgun) the role they were designed for?

[SpadesSlick]

We keep it the way it is and wait for everyone else to stop being silly and learn the weapons we are given.

[ChaosTLW]

What to do? That presents a problem, the answer is obvious, nerf the weapons. The real problem is however, HOW. How do we go about making rifle horrendous at short range but not diminish its long range value? How do we change SMG to not impede as much as it does on rifle and shotguns territory? I guess the question truely is, how do we actually give the weapons(bar shotgun) the role they were designed for?

In MY opinion, the Rifle should have it's RoF brought down to the original .76RC, maybe slightly increased, and the ammo reserve brought down to 6. People could still take 3 enemies down with one mag bodyshots only(3 hits on the old rifle with 10-round mag, 3x3=9; 2 hits on new rifle with 6-round magazine, 3x2=6)
For the SMG, I think it should either:
*Have a really strong Spread, so it doesn't get in the way of the rifle.
*Have the same spread, but with an extremely noticeable damage drop-off, so that it can hit Rifles, but the user needs to be really fuckin accurate to get all those hits.
Oh, and bring down headshot damage a bit.
But that's for a long-range nerf. I have exact idea on how to make it less effective at Close-Range, while keeping it's effectiveness at medium range, besides lowering the fire rate, so it takes more time to kill at Close Range, while the practical recoil gets lower at Medium Range. It wouldn't really interefere on the Long Range aspect unless the "Damage Dropoff" nerf is taken, but if it is a Spread nerf, then it wouldn't really affect Long Range.

[Ultrayoshi49]

I think Ben should try dictatorship like he did when he released the shotgun and not listen to everyone. The only reason the shotgun sucks ass compared to everything else is because Ben is TOO NICE.

[TheSifodias]

The only thing that needs nerfing is the rifle. Like the grenade, the smg may looks scary, but its not really that bad.
As for the rifle, I suggest that Ben forces rifle users to stay in one place when they shoot. For example, make the accuracy terrible while people walk/run/ jump. Or disable quickscoping for all guns except the shotgun so that aiming down sights doesn't become effective until .6-1.3 seconds after the click of the right mouse.

[Moonkey]

You need to remember, we don't need to nerf the rifle to the point of useless camping, as the rifle IS (was actually) AoS's main weapon. Think about the civil war, that type of rifle. What I'd think would nerf the rifle: CROUCH ANIMATION. Because nobody should instant stand. And I also hate crouch spamming because people with 150+ ping won't see the person spam ducking at times. So you get killed. This Is due to servers sending delayed information because of high ping. :(. I will always hate crouch spamming. :D

[TBS]

a little sway + bullet drop for the rifle.

[IrishElf]

You need to remember, we don't need to nerf the rifle to the point of useless camping, as the rifle IS (was actually) AoS's main weapon.

We don't need the semi being capable of attacking a half dozen people at once and winning either. With pinpoint accuracy and 1shot kill potential a bolt actionish fire delay would be perfect.

[CobaltCloud]

I think if we debuffed anything, it would be EVERYTHING. Give all the weapons except for the rifle a dropoff once the bullet travels a certain distance for each gun. None going to the rifle, the SMG would get a liitle making it less versatile at long range, then the shotty dropoff would'nt effect it because it is a close range weapon.



The rifle should have a little sway, like mentioned by others earlier, to make close range hopeless for rifle users. Another idea I had was that the shotty could be used for melee. You could make a swipe that would be slower than a spade, but does just as much damage. You could also make all the guns have melee, but the shotty would do the most.



Thats all I have to say. Like the ideas so far guys!

[Fluttershy]

You need to remember, we don't need to nerf the rifle to the point of useless camping, as the rifle IS (was actually) AoS's main weapon.

So youre saying that we should leave the Rifle be overpowered because it was the first weapon and the iconic weapon of the game? Im not saying to nerf it till its only useful for camping, im saying make it so you cant just storm bases with the damn thing and easily dispatch everything at close range.

I think if we debuffed anything, it would be EVERYTHING. Give all the weapons except for the rifle a dropoff once the bullet travels a certain distance for each gun. None going to the rifle, the SMG would get a liitle making it less versatile at long range, then the shotty dropoff would'nt effect it because it is a close range weapon.

err, thats pretty much what ben just did, and that doesnt debuff everything, just shotty and smg.

Another idea I had was that the shotty could be used for melee. You could make a swipe that would be slower than a spade, but does just as much damage. You could also make all the guns have melee, but the shotty would do the most.

Doesnt a melee option that doesnt one hit on a close range weapon strike you as a bit redundant?

We don't need the semi being capable of attacking a half dozen people at once and winning either. With pinpoint accuracy and 1shot kill potential a bolt actionish fire delay would be perfect.

Indeed

[Tigershield]

Rofl the Op title.

You watched "Dr Strangelove" did ya .

Have you ever watched Fail safe?

[ZaPhobos]

Ohgodnotthisthreadagain.

Jk.

You seem to have a reasonable argument that I can agree with, you and I seeming to share the same feelings.
Rifle needs to be nefed, due to it's current position as a battle rifle. 'Tis a shame it now only has 2 bullets removed from its clip as a nerf. They gave it the same firing rate back, which was the (wrong) move if you want weapons to be balanced. They had it right before, and I was horrified to see that it's firing rate had been brought back up and its clip added to again. Now it's a battle rifle with 8 bullets, not much better.

As for the SMG, I have mixed emotions on how to fix that problem. Two shots to the head means a kill, and 3 shots to the chest is a kill, and we will always have our smart people (me) crouching, aiming down sights, and compensating for recoil to kill at a long range.

And finally our "humble" shotgun. Rather reliable, if you use it correctly, use it the way you're meant to. Ambush and kill with one powerful blast. It seems as if it's doing fine right now as it is, it's just that the other weapons simply outdo this weapon because they can do what the shotgun can do at close range either as well or slightly less well as it.

Wohahohaha!
Thanks for the thought process, I promise a swift death.

[IrishElf]

As for the SMG, I have mixed emotions on how to fix that problem. Two shots to the head means a kill, and 3 shots to the chest is a kill, and we will always have our smart people (me) crouching, aiming down sights, and compensating for recoil to kill at a long range.

Ya'know, out of boredom I've been toying around with not aiming down sights at any range with SMG lately.

It certainly makes it a pain to compete long range while leaving short/mid for the most part fine. Perhaps completely disabling that feature will balance it more? Toying with damage and recoil/spread requires finding a very specific sweet spot to avoid having it being broken or useless.

[Speshul]

Give the SMG a progressively increasing bullet cone. Make it have three-player-wide spread at ranges more than 1 grid square away (which is just about long range), in addition to an (about) 120 degree-sloped damage drop off profile at 1+ grid squares. Hammer it into the "this is meant for mid-range fighting" role.

Increase the rifle's kick, give it a slight reduction in ROF, and make it very loud. Additionally, make it have two-player wide spread while hipfiring to force people to aim. It's an accuracy weapon. Hammer it into "this should be used for long-range, precision fire" role. It shouldn't be the "click here to make him die instantly with no work" button that it is at close range.

Tighten the shotgun's spread up to about ten blocks away, then make it resume the same spread radius. There is absolutely no excuse that the shotgun shouldn't get a one-hit-kill at even three blocks away on an unmoving target you've snuck up on and are aiming squarely into the torso of. Ten blocks is not at all too long of a reach for an effective OHK distance.

[Rabbitsoup]

Hi, total Ace of Spades noob here, but I have been playing a bit recently and have noticed that the rifle is awesome, to the point where I rarely use anything else.

I have no original ideas for balance, but I think ripping the rifle(s) from day of defeat off would be a good idea. That game has 1 rifle that is single shot with a long reload and does (I think) 95% damage on a body shot. The other is a slightly less accurate rifle that has an eight shot clip that can only be reloaded once depleted and does less damage. Both these rifles lose a lot of accuracy when you are running.

I don't think 2 rifles are needed however I think changing the mechanics of the current one to be closer to either of these especially for the reloading and rate of fire would be a step in the right direction.

Bullet drop would also be nice as right now I can headshot as soon I see someone emerge for the fog.